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foreignmy name is Amanda papier and I’m thedirector of programming for the NewmarkCivic life series of 92ny reconatiKaplan talks we at the 92nd Street in yNew York are so proud to co-present withAspen digital on tonight’s eventpreserving democracy informationdisorder and the 2022 midterm electionsa conversation with Chris Krebs andCecilia Kingthis program is also brought to you bythe 92ny Belfor Center for Innovationand social impact through a generousgift from Craig Newmark philanthropiesbefore we begin you’ll hear a bit moreabout our speakers from Jeff Greensenior director of cyber securityprograms at Aspen digitalif you are inspired to learn more aboutcyber policy after this conversation weencourage you to sign up for the Aspencyber Summit on November 16th the summitwill be hosted in person at 92ny in NewYork City and available online as wellwe’ll provide a link in the chat toregister along with a special promo codeand then again at the end of the eventalso at the end of tonight’s event weask that you take our two-minute surveyso that we can learn more from youplease click on the QR code to be takento the survey we appreciate yourfeedback now here’s Jeff Green for moreabout tonight’s program thank you allfor joining usgreat thanks Amanda it’s great to behere and we’re proud to be working againwith the 92nd Street Y in New York asAmanda mentioned this special event ispart of the lead up to the Aspen cyberSummit on November 16th the full daySummit is one of the year’s best stagesfor cyber policy discussion and we’regoing to convene top leaders frombusiness government Academia and CivilSociety we’re thrilled with the lineupwe have in place and that starts withthis timely discussion of these twogreat speakers first Aspen digitalsenior Newmark fellow and cyber securitypolicy Chris Krebs and secondaward-winning technology journalist andbest-selling author Cecilia Kang Ceciliajoined the New York Times in 2015 tocover technology and Regulation and isthe co-author of an ugly truth insideFacebook’s battle for Domination beforethat Cecilia was the senior technologycorrespondent for the Washington Postand was a staff writer at the San JoseMercury News and with Dow JonesChris is a founding partner of the krebStamos group and previously served asthe first director of the cyber securityand infrastructure security agencywithin DHS before becoming scissordirector Chris served in a variety ofroles at the Department of HomelandSecurity and before that directed U.Scyber security policy at Microsoft Chrisalso served in the George W BushAdministration where he advised DHSleadership on domestic and internationalrisk management and public-privatePartnerships tonight we’re going todiscuss the most significant risks weface in the upcoming election and whatwe can do to counter them and to protectour democracy with that I’ll hand off toCecilia thanks again for joining usonline and enjoy the programthank you Jeff for that kindintroduction and to the 92nd Street yNew York and Aspen digital I’m thrilledto be part of this importantconversation on the role ofdisinformation and how it’s playing inour upcoming and future electionsand in this discussion we hope to take abroad view of what brought us to thismoment in 2022 where there are a vast abroad amount of a vast array of threatsum to the security and integrity of theelections um mainly brought bydisinformation and I thought that was agood place to start Chrisum you followed a few election Cycles atthis point and as I’ve heard you say2020 built on 2018 which built on 2016.and I’ve also heard you refer to onlinethreats of misinformation anddisinformation as the Sputnik momentum please set the scene for 2022. whatdo you mean by this being a new Sputnikmoment and talk about sort of thetimeline that brought us to where we aretodayso uh Cecilia thanks for that intro andAmanda and Jab thanks for the this setupand and for hosting this event thisevening so I you know it it seems like2016 was forever ago and and back inthose days the good old days almost Iwas at Microsoft and we were tracking anumber of threat actors that were usingdifferent techniques to try to breakinto email accounts and compromisecredentials of of you know notable uhofficials that were either in related tocampaigns or uh to to parties uhpolitical parties and and so at thatmoment as I was kind of looking throughthe summer of 2016 through uh the fallof 16th through the election and thenyou have all these alerts and reportsand announcements coming out of thefederal government it becomes clear thatthe Russians were attempting tointerfere in the 2016 electionum and ultimately in January of 2017right at the end of the ObamaAdministration the intelligenceCommunity released what’s known as theintelligent Community assessment theyreleased an unclassified report that ingreat detail in an unclassified mannerdetails how the Russians attempted tointerfere in that 20 2016 election andthere were three main vectors orapproaches or attack you know vectors inthat election in those efforts tointerfere the first one was attemptingtoyou know scope out and get into electionequipment the systems that actuallysupport the administration of Electionsat the state and local level the secondwas a hack and leak campaign focused onthe Democratic National Committee and onthe Hillary Clinton campaign and some ofher staffers John podesta namely andthen third and finally was this morekind of vague uh ethereal almostdisinformation campaign that was tryingto sow chaos undermine confidence in ourelected officials and our leaders andjust in the in the general uh you knowpolitical discourse in in uh you knowacross the United States and andultimately as as uh a friend Sue Gordonwho is the Deputy uh director forNational Intelligence during the TrumpAdministration she said she’s really youknow they’re really trying to attack ourhearts and minds and have us lose faithin ourselves in the American experimentthat’s that’s really what that thirdthat third fork or prong of the attackwas about out and when you mentionedthat I I you know how I’ve called it aSputnik moment before and and my youknow the parallels clumsily I’m tryingto develop here are that 1957 when theSoviets put uh Sputnik into low earthorbit you know there were a number of uhpeople in the U.S that that took that asa significant wake-up call not as muchbecause they beat us to space that wasabsolutely kind of a Bravado momentwhere they got there before us kind ofhurt our pride a little bit but I thinkthe more uh upsetting and concerningaspect of of Sputnik was the fact of youknow how they got Sputnik into space andit was the fact that it was launched ontop of what’s effectively anintercontinental ballistic missile andso for the Decades of uh the Cold War upto the date that we’ve had thisGeographic distance where we could spotthe bombers coming over the the polarice caps or across the Pacific orAtlantic we would have some degree of uhyou know time to prepare time to launchour own counter offenses and this andthen ICBM you’re talking very smallamount of time so so again it was aboutuh you know as you draw the equivalentsto 2016 we now saw that digital riskscyber and information operationspropaganda and the likeum we’re able to undermine and attackour public institutions undermine ourconfidence in in our election uh youknow process and ultimately attackdemocracy and so that’s those are theparallels I’m trying uh trying to drawhere and the the most uh you know thethe most frightening aspect of all thisto me is that uh whether it’s Russia orIran or even we’re seeing now China andeven domestic actorsthese are intelligent actors that areimproving that are shifting that areevolving their techniques they’reactually learning from one another andso what was in 2016 a a single foreignactor now we have this whole breadth ofrisks and threat actors in the midst ofour elections and and yes I said foreignand domestic and so yes that brings usthrough you know 2018 you know again itwas uh Russia 2020 we had a a mix ofRussia we had a mix uh you know you adda little dash of Iran a Sprinkle ofChina and 2020 was a pretty active spacebut it’s what happened after 2020um the 2020 election and the months thatfollowed and even today almost two yearsafter 2020 uh the 2020 election where wereally see that it is a very Dynamicspace that some of the tools that wehave to counteract threats againstelections and really enhance theresilience of Elections have shifted andwe actually don’t necessarily have allthe tools that my my one might hope forbecause as I said the actors are not allforeign our intelligence services and inourin other tools of National Security uhthe National Security apparatus I thinkare are well equipped to address some ofthe threats from foreign actors uh butwhen it comes to domestic threats toelections I think we’re we’re stillscrambling a little bit and we arehindered um uh in part by some of ourown uh you know constitutionalprotections of courseum a lot of the 2022 disinformation thatI’ve been seeing is reallyum new versions of or repeat of some ofthese narratives of 2020 yeah and alsoto your point about domestic actorswe’re seeing candidates themselves assome of the spreaders of thisinformation maybe you can talk aboutwhat’s more like maybe try drill down alittle bit more into domestic threats aswell as just generally what you’d see isthe biggest threats right now in themidterms yeah I so so when I as I’vebeen talking about threats to the 2022election and you know looking forward alittle bit more into 2024 I see fourprimary threats or risks to the electionfirst is this continued delegitimizationof the 2020 uh election results andwhether the president was you knowPresident Biden was duly elected in afree and fair election that hascontinued to calcify and almostmetastasized throughout the politicalclass political Elites and that is thenfurther reaching down into just thegeneral population and the voting basein part uh you know mainly in in the theRepublican Partyum there have been any number of focusgroups that I’ve seen that you’ve allseen over the last several weeks thatwhere they bring voters in and they askabout the 2020 election and there are somany people that are absolutelyconvinced that the election of 2020 wasstolen and yetcannot provide a single concreteestablished credible example of thatstolen or rigged election which which isclearly clearly a problem but also anexample of how this has really seepedinto almost the Zeitgeist of a politicalparty now that then kind of or driftsand bleeds into the second threat thatI’m concerned about and that is thesethe K this delegitimized concept is thenmanifesting in threats to electionworkers we’ve seen the state of Georgiadevelop tools that election officialscan then report to law enforcement whenthey get uh when they get threats thefact that you actually need a tool ofthat nature where election officialswould feel threatened by voters uh orthe general public is obviously uh isobviously a significant problem in andof itself but the flip side of this iswe’re we’re seeing uh intimidation andthreats against voters themselves and soout in Arizona there are a number ofpending felony investigations againstthose that have been watching the ballotDropbox there’s an entire operationthere’s a there’s a movement in fact aGrassroots movement to get people outthere to watch uh watch for ballot mulesor traffickers or whatever the in Voguename is which just like in and of itselfis bizarre right so so if if a groupdiscovered that there were ballot mulesand ballot traffickers and then therethere was a tell-all book and a tell-allmovie that exposed that con about the2020 level that these people actuallybelieve that again if this happened thatthey’re going to run the same playbookin the exact same state and expect tonot get caught so it just there’s maybemy I’m just a little too logical aboutthis and and others aren’t but the kindof the cherry on top of all of this isthat just like in Georgia where there’sa reporting mechanism for electionofficials in Arizona there’s a reportingmechanism for voters that have beenintimidated so you’re actually gettingthe voters that have been intimidatedcalling in and Reporting saying heythese guys accused me of being a ballotmule by the way here’s my name andhere’s my number happy to provideadditional information so you know itjust kind of exposes the the just thelunacy and farce you know the farcicalnature of of uh these these continuedclaims about harvesting and ballottrafficking which which again it’s thisdoes not happen in any significant ormeaningful scaleum as has been established time and timeagain not just by Me by actual lawenforcement officers of the UnitedStates government including the AttorneyGeneral Bill Barrum the the third threat that I’mconcerned aboutis the actual infiltrationof the election Administration processby hyper partisan radicalized andactivated people and what we’ve seenexamples of election officials orelection workers and for in one case inthe state of Michigan uh that insertedan unauthorized USB drive into anelection system now it was detectedthere was no harm to the process butnonetheless it was it was just anexample of how people have been LED downthis path they’ve let been led tobelieve that there’s some sort of youknow election miss or mal Administrationgoing onum on the on behalf of a political partyand they’re putting their people on TheInsider so this Insider threat and thereare controls in place that you canum that that can be used to detect andprevent against these sort of things butnonetheless you know it’s something thata couple years ago we didn’t actuallyhave to worry too much about becausethere wasn’t this upswell whereGroundswell rather ofum uh of this this movement to get intoget into the inside so the the fourth uhmain concern I have is is that as we’reall domestically kind of at each other’sthroats and and the political discoursecontinues to degrade and there’s thisthreat of political violence we actuallydo see some at least politicalintimidation that could lead up topolitical violence it it really makes itquite easy for those thatforeign adversaries for example that maywish us harm or ill uh and ill-fate andso it gives a there’s a lot ofopportunities there’s a lot of attacksurface for the Russian government forthe Chinese government for the Iraniangovernment they all have some sort ofum grievance to to pick with the UnitedStates uh at this moment and in theiropportunities I think for them to justfurther exacerbate and magnify andamplify uh the degradation of discourseand create further chaos and that’sreally I think ultimately uh what whatwhat all these actors are trying toachieve right now is just chaos chaoschaos and get us all to lose confidencein this process so that then we don’tknow where to look and so when someonestands up and seems to know what theheck they’re talking about we listen tothem we follow them and that’sultimatelythe autocrats Playbook it’s theauthoritarian’s Playbook and as we’veseen democracy and Retreat globally asde-globalization multi-polarity Creepsin and this rise of digitalauthoritarianismum you know this is where we actuallyneed to be on our utmost uh guard andultimately answer the question that weshould all be asking ourselves do we dowe believe in this experiment ofAmerican democracy and if so then weactually have to be able to participatein it we have to fight for it and wehave to get out there and you know wecan’t let these threats sink in and youknow um you know but you know in someway keep us from voting or expressingum our you know our political choiceChris I definitely plan to come back tothe foreign um question and what’s goingon right now and it’s extraordinarilythe FBI actually issued a part earlierthis month about Russia and China takingadvantageum of the moment to spreadmisinformation but if I could go back todomestic doctors actors you know thewhat you’re saying aboutum people voters not knowing even whereto turn there’s so much doubt out thereand what I found really extraordinary isthat many candidates and sittingpoliticians who are not even actuallyfor a re-electionum just simply raising the questionsthis it seems like things are are messythat we’re recording today on October27th and today Senator Ted Cruz fromTexas for example tweetedum in response to a story about Michiganelection officials saying it’s going totake many days to count votes and hetweeted blue States always say that ittakes many other many days to countvotes um have official tallies why isthat the case it should it should beable to like the count should happenwithin days so we all know that that’snot true and depending on the statethere’s a time when you can startcounting votes which in in thatparticular state is the day of it’sNovember 8th in Arizona there’s a lot along period of mail-in vote counting forexample so he’s raising that questionCarrie Lake who is running um in Arizonaoften goes right close to the line butsays does not have proof but will say itreally needs to be investigated there’sjust so much doubt about the Integrityof 2020. how do these doubts play inwhat is the threat of even just raisingthe Specter it seems like what I observeis that a lot of Voters are kind ofprimed over two years with these doubtsand these theories that they’ve heardfrom 2020 and now they’re actuallyacting they’re they’re bringing they’rebringing arms to these ballot Boxes EtcI you know how much time do you haveCecilia because I you know I wasum I was in event a couple weeks ago andI you know I’m a CBS News contributor Ido a fair amount of media and I wasremarking to a senior executive at oneof the media outlets and I said look I Ican get on TV and I can talk aboutum cyber security issues technology riskissues in a very measured clinical waybut as soon as you start asking mequestions about disinformation targetingdemocracy and domestic politics I getvery animated I get very excited I getflushed I get red and I it this is it’sjustum you know look back to 2020 I was Iwas fortunate to be in the right placein the right time and I like to thinkthat the team that I worked with that wedid a good job and that we you know wewe ultimately defended democracy weupheld the Constitution we put countryover party but but now to your pointit it’s like the Dynamics are shiftingthroughout the political ecosystem and Ithink three things are happening uhfirst is that the incentive structureshave shifted pretty dramatically soprior to 2020 or at least 2018 or beforeum there there wasn’t a whole lot ofbenefit to a political uh an electedofficial or a candidate to go onderanged rantsor toe the line as you’ve said onum the abuse is the election process itjust it it was in the fringes it wasabsolutely in the fringes it was not amainstream thing but the incentivestructures nowum for two reasons one is is actuallybenefits you it gets you cachet in thecommunity particularly in the in theMaga base because it aligns with whatthe form the former president said thatas long as the former presidentcontinues to push this narrativeum it is kind of the it’s theexpectation it’s the it’s it’s kind ofthe standard that you have to meetthere’s a second aspect of those thatthat maybe aren’t going to go you knowyou know full-blown elections denierhere and yet they won’t denounce itthey won’t speak out against itum they won’t fully endorse it but theykind of play that squishy middle and inpart they’re you know there’s not somuch seeking the approval they justdon’t want to invoke the backlash theydon’t want to be labeled a rhino theydon’t want you know so there’s a massivepiece of thisum that that is not it’s just aboutsitting in the middle and trying to keepyou know keep your head down uh andsurvive till the next political battleso that’s kind of the incentivestructures again it’s a lot of this isabout is about seeking power it’s aboutretaining influence and then of coursefundraising and money and uh electiondenialism is a is a is a huge way toraise a significant amount of money aswe’ve seen the foreign former presidentsraised probably hundreds of millions ofdollars uh on uh even what was it 250million in the immediate aftermath ofthe of the 2020 election so thoseincentive structuresthen lead to a permission structurechangewhere you you actually start pushingcrazier and crazier things because it isin fact acceptable because it’s comingtoum into the mainstream because to yourpoint we’re just asking questions that’sthat’s like the Baseline now just askingquestions is the Baseline introducingdoubtum undermining confidence in a processthat that you know responsible electedofficials out there Steven richerMaricopa County recorder in Arizona he’sbeen radically transparent in whatum the county is doing he spends themajority of his day right now respondingto questions not just from uh you knowthe general voting population which ofcourse he does but also from otherofficials in you know the Arizona senatefor instance and they keep bringing upthe same thing that he debunks over andover so again permission structures haveshifted which thenall you know continuesbecause there’s no accountabilitymeasure the only accountability measurewe really have right now in Americanpolitical discourseumof any kind ofimmediacy is it The Ballot Boxbut then you take it back to theincentive structure thing where that’sin the motors this is almost what thevoters want to hear they want to hearthat Trump was robbed because that’swhat they believe that’s what they’vebeen told and I’m not going to get intothis whole like Georgia Orwell 1984thing but but it really has come fullcircle where they were told what tobelievethey believe it and now they expecttheir political leadership so there’sbeen an entiresystematic failure of politicalleadershipum throughout the Republican partythat’s that’s my belief um that is thatthat had an opportunity early on to cutthis thing out but it just was toobeneficial too much of a of a fundraiserand also maintaining maintaining credand along the way we’ve just continuedto push the bar upand and what that’s gotten us where weare today where you have candidates foroffice Statewide office like thegovernor GOP candidate for governor inArizona you’ll be candidate for governoranduh in the state of Pennsylvania you havesecretaries of State in Arizona MichiganNevada and elsewhere that are running onthis platform of the 2020 as a stolenelection and and some have even gone asfar to say that you know if they wereelected in and one of the first thingsthey would do in office would becertified 2020. the 2020 election whichjust you know so everybody knows that’snot a thing that doesn’t exist certainlynot in the Constitution or federal lawstate law I’m not aware of that eitherso it’s this is all performative and andthat’s just kind of the reality inaddition to causing chaos there is awhole bunch of political uh performativepolitical actions right nowum and look I am cabineting this verytightly right now around the 2022 or the22 election and in the threats as I seeit there’s all sorts of politicalhijinks happening across the board butwhen we’re talking about the 22 electionum I think that the the Republican partyhas a significant amount ofresponsibility for uh this just generalundermining of confidence and this lackof confidence we have uh looking uh youknow a couple weeks outwell thanks Chris for fact checking thethe conspiracy theory that you can umdecertify uh as a state official the2020 electionum also I’m sorry one quick thing youknow you and and this is kind of i i asa almost as a is a risk managementprofessional tend to focus on uhprobably too much on you know wherethings are not as good as they need tobe but look you know all is not dire andI know we’re going to talk a little bitabout this uh later on but specific toinformation about electionsum there is an effort by the NationalAssociation of secretaries of state andthe National Association of secretariesuh I’m sorry state election directors uhit’s calledum trusted info 2022. that’s a hashtagon Twitter or whatever social mediaplatform you’re on but uh that the wholekind of concept of this of this uheffort in this information campaign isyou can be on whatever social mediaplatform or whatever you’re listening topodcasts or on the radio but if you wantto know what’s going on with an electionwhen you’re supposed to vote whereyou’re supposed to voteum when the polls are open what you knowwhat sort of ID or you know even justchecking go to your go to either yourstate election official so yoursecretary of state state electiondirector or your County uh votingofficial your your County votingregistrar recorder or whatever whateverthe theum the model is in in your county that’swhere you go get information don’tlisten to National figures on this stufflisten to the local election official orthe state election official they havethe information that you need to makesure that you’re you’re an informedvoter at least for the process you knowyour policy decisions are all up to youbut at least in the process of voting inthe administration of voting you need tolook to your state or local electionofficial they know the local lawsum let’s talk a little bit about whatyou’re seeing right now in terms offoreign actors taking advantage of thischaos where where is it coming from andhow is it taking shape yeah I mean it’sit’ssitting where I am on the outside in 22is a is a bit different than I was inthe in uh 2020 you know constantlytracking threads we had you knowfull-blown intelligence dashboard ofwhat was going on uh but from what I’mpicking up and the reports and alertsthat I’m seeing that the US governmentis issuingum they are not aware of any specific uhplan or intent to disrupt the 22election they have seen some activitythere was a report from a week or twoago about Chinese uh government actorsor Chinese linked uh cyber actorsscanning State party systems and maybeState systems as well uh and and that issomething that we we have not reallyhistorically seen we’ve seen themum you know look at uh you know votervoter polling information and registerinformation to do some kind of sentimentanalysis uh but but actually going afterkind of the bits and pieces of ofelection and structure not sure we’vereally seen the Chinese do that at scaleand sowhere the Russians kind of were doingthisand the Chinese were right below themit’s possible that Chinese are trying topick up a little bit or catch up andthis is consistent I think more broadlywith Chinese information operations is aa French Think Tank last year issued areport and they called it therussification of Chinese informationoperations so uh they’re they’re they’rethey’re absolutely learningum from some of the things that theChinese or the Russians rather have donein the pastum in in terms of you know the Iraniansthe Iranians were active in 2020 I wouldsuspect that you know some of thoseactors are are still around there’sdoing some of the same stuff they’vebeen sanctioned and there have been someindictments but you know they’re stillthere so I wouldn’t be surprised to seeyou know a lot of this is kind of thethe things the Iranians did they theyran a couple differentum information operations one of themwas to pose as the proud boys andtargeting voters in a couple States andwe we know who you uh you’re you’reregistered for and you better changeyour registration you better not votefor that guy or we’re going to comeafter you which um was actually easilydebunkable and that was actually not acampaign that that caught on and itdidn’t have a whole bunch of Engagementdidn’t really impact I think the broaderunderstanding because it was it was alittle sloppy but but also you know wewere it was it was the Iranian effortsin 2020 October 2020 were part of youknow kind of what launched ourumuh our uh the the rumor control programat cisa in in late October and and youknow all rumor control was uh was uhsomething that we we took frankly fromFEMA because in the wake of everyhurricane there are fraudsters and othergrifters that pop up trying to get alittle bit of that sweet FEMA you knowuh Grant action and and so what FEMAwould do would postum a bunch of different FAQs anddebunkers known as rumor control andsaid hey if you get a call that you needto give someone this information overthe phone to get your uh uh you knowyour personal assistants or your publicassistance then uh you know that’s nottrue you should call this number FEMAhotline or whatever it was and so wejust we use that model and so if it washey if somebody says that they know whoyou voted for they may know who you’reregistered as but if they can if theytell you they know who you voted forwell you know in you know 40 states inthe United States it’s the the secretballot it’s it’s kind of the the law ofthe land and so they they can’t know whoyou voted for so so that’s that’s how wekind of styled those rumor controlmodels and cisa continues to do that andex anticipation and expectation thatthere will be other claims foreign anddomestic so so back to kind of thebroader space China Iran I you know Ikeep an eye on uh Russia as well I thinkthey’re obviously very busyum they have their hands full gettingtheir butts kicked by uh Ukraine rightnow and uh that includes their cyberoperations that includes theirinformation operations but they canprobably walk um and uh you know walkand chew gum at the same time Iapparently can’t say that lineum but they can do it they can walk andchew gum uh and so my my concern hereand I think it’s shared by some in theNational Security Community is that asthe uh the prospects of Russia you knowcoming out with any thing that resemblehumble’s success or a victory in inUkraine as those is those that Outlookdiminishes then they’re going to get alittle bit more erratic use a little bitmore of their unconventionalcapabilities and that’s I think we’reseeing a little bit of that right nowprobably this whole uh ramping up of adialogue about or you know theirrhetoric about using tactical Nucleardevices in the battlefield this falseflag operation about a Ukrainian dirtybombum maybe even as alleged the thedisruption and sabotage of thenordstream one pipeline all those thingskind of set a a expectation or again youknow we talk about permission structuresbut if those things are on the tablethen certainly an information operationor a offensive cyber operation against aU.S system and it doesn’t have to justbe elections right so yes they could getinto a parish in Louisiana or a Townshipand and in uh in Pennsylvania and justdo something right you know knock aregistration database offline orelection night reporting offline andwhat would happenand again these are the sorts of thingsthat wouldn’t have any impact onsomeone’s ability to cast a voteum the tabulationum or or the vote itself so it’s it itprobably would not be about actuallyattacking the voting process securityit’s more about attacking our mindsetour minds and creating fear and that’sthat’s in part how uh Russianinformation operations work it’s acombination of Technical andpsychological so again I could see somesort of trying to introduce a ripplesomewhere in the system that would thenthey could amplify but they probablywouldn’t even have to amplify all thatmuch because there’s so much paranoiaout there and there’s so many peoplebecause of that again that constant uhpressure to delegitimize the 2020election where the where the the pump isprimed where people jump on every littlething it’s happening in uh so I live inVirginia and a contractor or a vendorfor the state election board issuedum some voting instructions to I believeit was about 60 000 or so 61 000 maybevoters in Virginia they just gave themthe wrong information where they need toget to go vote it was weeks in advanceof the election and yet it wasimmediately being claimed was like seethis is what we’re talking about yeahmost secure ever huhthe whole pointis it thaterror by a vendor was detected and it’sbeen or being corrected in advance ofthe opportunity to cast the voteso it shows that resilience is is reallythe model we’re shooting for here it’snot 100 security and I never said thatno one ever said that it’s about theresilience of of the process and to yourearlier point about some of the thevoters or rather some of the officialsthat are talking aboutum you know hey you know when I wasgrowing up it was it was that one day inNovember and everything was counted thatnight that’s never been the caseso so let’s just you know roll back theclock 150 years mail-in voting waswidely used during the U.S Civil Warso mail and voting’s been happening fora long long time yeah 80 or so of Votersin Arizona vote by mail entire stateWashington Oregon that doesn’t justhappen overnight that takes years adecade or more to establish that processand give it get everybody on board sothese systems they workum and they work quite effectively andthere’s a you know a great deal ofIntegrity in this process and and thereal unfortunate threat and the realkind of lack of Integrity is the peoplethat are attacking the processthroughout yeah and and that kind ofleads naturally to the question of howthis this information misinformationspreads in the role of the platforms youknowyou know even two years ago in the 2020election Tick Tock wasn’t nearly thething it is todayum a lot of the more right-wing siteslike truth social didn’t exist exactlyum you know uh gab rumbled they’re verypopular nowum Telegram and the use of telegramum to spread conspiracy theories andthere’s a really interesting conspiracytheory attract today about howum the rest of Conex CEO this is amachine a voting machineum uh their CEO umCounting certainly no conic conic has apla a program called pulse chief that isbasically for uh it’s Logisticsmanagement so yeah you know these thesevoting jurisdictions these electionjurisdictions have a number of electionofficials and they have schedules theyhave to cover so poll Chief is atechnology it’s a program that helpselection officials manage almostschedules and clocks and time and allthere’s a second piece of this aboutjust Asset Management you know what howmany devices do we need at what Precinctat what time who’s responsible forpicking it up there’s nothing to do atall here with the actual information andthe casting in the election but in inThe Story Goes uh on this one uh storyis that that there was some poll workerdata personally identifiable informationheld um on a server allegedly in inChina which is a violation of thecontract that uh again allegedly thatConnex signed with uh the jurisdictionuh in question here so uh but but toyour point it’s it is it has been bothused tojustify 2020 and then it’s also lookingforward for for current uh explanationsas well so sorry exactly no this isreally good it’s very very animated it’sa very important distinction thank youand my point is that it fueled all thesenew conspiracy theories like new likebasically and new versions of these 2020themes but as far as like that wasspread on telegram the stuff that I wasseeing talk within Q Anon communitiestalk about the the landscape of channelsof disinformation has it are there moreis it more complicated is there like isit harder to squash are the platforms Imean clearly many of the platforms don’thave very strong moderation policies howare you thinking about 2020 I’m sorry 22and the platforms and the challengesthereit’s um is a former boss of mine calledit it’s a it’s a dog’s breakfast it’sjust everything and it’s it’s so muchmorecomplex from A diversity of outlets andsources and mechanisms and it’s not justsocial media platforms right yes we’reseeing these alternative uh journals oror kind of questionable Journal journalsand you’re seeing this the whole pinkslime movement of you know manufacturedand fabricated news outlets you’reseeing foreign actors the Russians dothis quite well where they will use someof their stenoed media and then a nexthop out or two that’s related to SATAown media that may promote 95 of thetime legit legitimate news and then fivepercent is something that is inalignment with the Strategic objectivesand whatever information operation orcampaign they’re trying to push so it’sit’s which I think goes to your biggerpoint of information pollution is realand there’s so many different sources ofinformation that is that is not vettedthat is you know ultimately kind of theferris Buell or uh you know saw down at31 Flavors type thing of that game atelephonethat that leads toum the just the the spread of theseconspiracy theories unchecked and andyou know I have personal concerns aboutspecific platforms I also do Wonderum you know two years from now 2024 whatplatforms are even going to be usedanymore are still around or the businessmodel is gonna gonna you know withstandthe next couple years I mean there’s alot of change going on in both thetechnology platforms the ownerships uhthe business modelsum the users rightum and so I think about and I think it’sprobably you know worth kind ofhighlighting right now of tick tockspecificallyum it’s not just the platform itself butit’s increasingly the way that a certaindemographic a younger cohort uh it’swhere they get their information theyget their news which you know first offjust like thinking about getting yournews fromum not even a news aggregation site buta social media platform where you havecontent creators pushing thingsalongside established Outletsum you know you people should bedeveloping their their perspective andtheir World Views and their specificopinions on political issues andpolitical candidates from A diversityand variety of outlets and ideallyacross you know multiple differentpolitical uh you know Outlets across thepolitical Spectrum but certainly notfrom a single outlet of some you knowrandom person that’s that’s telling youtheir their view or what they heardum and that’s I think that’s kind of thebest defense we have right now isdiversity from established well uh youknow well qualified well-vetted uhwell-vetted Outlets again you know ifyou’re walking down the street in inyour in your town city or wherever andthere’s just a random crazy person onthe side of the street yelling aboutsomething you’re not gonna believe thatand say now I’m gonna go vote for thisperson because I heard that thing orthis is my entire identity now and I youknow more broadly and I’ve talked aboutthis before but I I do Wonderum among the many many other ways thatcovid has kind of fundamentally changedSociety over the last few years but thatkind of withdrawal from Community wherewe had almost inoculation effects builtinto Community engagement like you knowjust going down to the to the ice creamshop or going to a soccer game or or youknow whatever you know choir or whateverit is you’re doing on Sunday or Saturdayand and those mechanisms kind of keptyou in check and you kind of you had ayou had things to bounce ideas off of orthings you were thinking about or thingsyou had heard and you could takefeedback but when you pull back when wepulled back uh into our homes almostduring uh during covid and you’reresorting instead to Echo chambers thatexist on these social media platformswhere your people your you know you’realongside people and you T people tendto cultivate followers or or you knowrelationships online of you know peoplethat think like them that talk like themthat believe like them and if somethingchallenges challenges work right wedon’t oh we’re not online we’re not inwe’re not on the social media platformto do work we want this to be enjoyablelow friction and fun so you you getcaught in these echo echo Chambers andand trapped and uh and I think thatreally kind of allowed for theacceleration of conspiracy theory groupsand in Q Anon specifically and and thenonce you know once you come out you goback into the world I think a lot ofpeople are experiencing a shock and youknow just a great example that I Ialways talk about is is you know wouldyou go up to you know one of your kidssoccer games or baseball games orwhatever and you say hey guys what arey’all doing this weekend well you knowwe’re going to do this thing like wellI’m going to Dallas because JFK Jr isback and he’s having a coming out partyand I’m really excited and it’s justlike whatso it just shows you how importantCommunity is it really is a fundamentalelement of The Human Condition and howwe all seek those those that contact andthat engagement that validationum in that social engagement and thereare healthy ways to do itand there are unhealthy ways to do itthat are driven by kind of unseenalgorithms and hands that are on theirend driven by a financial model so ityou know we’ve got to kind of Rectify Ithinkum the way the business the businessmodel behind platforms uh and we took alook at that last year with AspenInstitute and the the information uh thecommission on information disorderdid um you know that’swith your work at the Aspen institutionand that commission did the platformstake your recommendations and and thisis a question a sort of a tag on to thatquestion from an audience member if youwere brought in as an advisorwhat would you tell companies like metaor YouTube onum how to better prepare their platformsfor widespread disinformationsurrounding electionsum so I I will let me pull back for asecondum because I’ve talked to theseplatforms over you know individuallyalmost every one of themum since I’ve been out of government andyou know they’ve become like hey howcould we do better what do you thinkabout this and and ultimatelyumthere’s they can do almost everything orthey could do nothing and they can doeverything in between but what whatultimately has to happen is thegovernment needs to step up and I’m nottalking about moderation the governmentshould not be in the moderation businesswhatsoever what the government can dothough is require transparency in theplatforms and require disclosures and sowhat I’ve liked in this two in the pastand whether it holds up or not I don’tknow but it’s it it it allows me tothink aboutum some of the the immediate steps wecan take with the platforms so what I’velikened it too is is you know I likemoments right I talk about Sputnikmoment I kind of feel like we’re in apost-in Ron moment Iran failedor was allowed to failbecause there was a a failure oftransparency there was a lack ofdisclosure and they were able tocontinue to cook the books cook thebooks it was illegal and I’m not at allsuggesting what the platforms are doingright now is illegal but the lack ofdisclosures and transparency and howthey were managing their books led totheir ultimate failureso what I’m hitting at here is that weneed somethinglike a sarbanes-oxley in thetransparency requirements the disclosurerequirements for platforms and uh Natepurcelli who is a professor at Stanforduh law has has proposed a piece oflegislation and it’s worked its waythrough uh you know at various levels ofboth chambers of the US Congress butit’s a great first step of we just haveto require the platforms to do certainkind of Baseline transparency measuresand we we added a bunch of additionalones through the the Aspen Institute butit’s the basics ofum you know provide access to a set ofof researchers so that they can look atdata Holdings and then an anonymizedminimized wayum there are others about uh you knowcontent moderation by the platforms theyhave to keep some sort of record andmake it available to whether it’sRegulators or others just to you knowmake sure we have a sense of what dothey say they’re doing or who theirpolicies are and how are they moderatingagainst itum things like scope and scale uh uh thesuper influencers on the platform youknow what is engagement at scale looklike who do they engage how do youbacktrackum on on some of those issues and youknow again there’s a there’s a number ofthese recommendations but the idea is isif we can get platforms social mediaplatforms to kind of standardize arounda core set of disclosures then we canstart benchmarking and then that willthen inform the general public and I’mnot I’m not saying that the generalpublic is going to look at thesedisclosures and all of a sudden it’slike oh well based on their contentmoderation policy I’m not going to usethem anymore because because we knowthat that’s that’s not how U.S consumersin particular make decisions on whatproducts they use it’s not always aboutyou know the the whether it’s the mostsecure the safest it sometimes does itcome with a you know a free game or ayou know a six-month subscription to thelatest uh streaming uh streaming serviceum but nonetheless it I think it’llinformum advertisers I think it can can informuh you know some consumers andultimately it it should lead to someshifts in business model and particularhow algorithms are what can be used uhin a you knowfairly capricious mannerum we should look forward a little bitbecause 22 is really a precursor to 24 Iimagine given what you’ve said about thepast couple lives as well how are youthinking about what happens on November8thum well how November 8th will affect andthe days after and the months after itwill affect 2024.yeah well look I mean I think I thinkthere are a number of candidates thatare up for officeum in the 22 election that if uh if theywere to win office and be in place in 24and they were in a positionto certify or administer an electionfirst because there’s a lot they can dothere but then administer the electionin 24.um you know I I would have some concernthat they you know I’m talking you knowMark fincham uh yeah in Arizona JimMarchant Nevada they’ve all you know youknow even even fincham’s even said thatif he was in office of 24 and Biden uhwho if he were to run again and he wereto win that you know he wouldn’t evenyou know entertain the question ofwhether he would certify he just saidthat’s Fantasylandum which I don’t know if that’s kind ofthe new response to the question nowthat no one seems to be able to answerof would you you know are you going toaccept the outcome of the election ifyou lose itum but but again it’s like not reallygetting a good vibe off this one rightnowum so yeah I’ve got I’ve got concerns inArizona and even in Pennsylvania becauseif you know Doug mastroni yeah uh andI’m not in the you know the Larry sabadocrystal ball here of who’s going to winthese electionsum but if he were to win in 22 and be inthe position or be in the governorshipin 24 uh that the governor selects thesecretary of state mastron has alreadysaid that he um he is one of those thatwould try to decertify 2020. yeah he’salso said that he would you know conducta fairly uh significant and thoroughPurge of the voter rolls in Pennsylvaniaand and that I think would you know havea pretty good chance leaving a number ofVoters behind but then it actually putsthem in a position ofum you know actually having to beingable to certify that election and that’sthat’s you know again I’m trying tobring in where I can some of the thecontrols or the defensive measures andthat’s why I think theum uh Liz Cheney and Zoe Lofgren thecongresswoman uh that put uh put for thepresidential electoral Reform Act Ithink that clarifies the certificationprocess who’s responsible for certifyingand if they do in fact refuse to certifywith those litigationopportunities are and then the role ofcourse of the uh the state supreme courtand then again it gives you thatescalation path on uh the will of thepeople and ensuring that that a that avoteumthat the the will of the voters isreflected in the state electoral uhCollege countChrisprettyGrimmum stuff that we talked about the endbut you did talk about a few things thatI think folks should look at which isum trusted info 2022um for for their for um the bestinformation out there you talked alsoabout how this this the process itselfis secureum you’ve said it in 2020 that it wasthe most secure election in history itsounds like you feel that way again soagain I I try toyou know like you know don’t listen tome I’m not in office anymore I I I hadmy momentum you know to the greatest extentpossible I try to point people to uhcredible trustworthy voices and and andyou know figures here andthe FBI and sisa a couple weeks ago uhreleased uh an alert that said thatactually was much stronger than anythingI ever said but it said that yeah youknow we’ve we’ve never seen an uh anadversaryum in a foreign adversary in a positionto change a vote uh prevent the vote orchange the ultimate tabulation of thevoting and and that is a it’s it’sactually unlikely that a voter that theywould be able to do soum in a manner undetected at scale andand I I believe that I’ve alwaysbelieved that and it’s it in partbecause it’s really hard despite whateverybody says are there vulnerabilitiesin systems yes there are there are thereare controls there are Lair defensesthere are vulnerabilities it can bepatched there are parallel testingthere’s logic and accuracy they’reaudits uh one thing that I’ve I’ve beena staunch advocate for for for years andyears is we need as much paper in thesystem as possible I’ve done a lot ofum you know media and not just here butin foreign countries as well andum they you know I constantly get thatquestion of like Hey we’re thinkingabout going to online voting and I justI I you know I’ve had so many near heartattacks uh in the last couple weeks butno like what we need is evidence-basedelections that we can establish over andover and over again uh the outcome ofthe election that’s why you know fromfrom 2016 we had just below 80 of thevote cast had a paper ballot with it upthrough 2020 it was about 95 now I don’tthink we’ll ever get toum to 100 because there’s some votersthat need accommodations foraccessibility purposes at the votingboothum where where they will touch thescreen and um it’ll be recorded on mediabut but as much paper as possible so youcan go up and count and recount and thencount again if you want or you knowanother timeum and that’s ultimately that’s whathappened in Georgia and Pennsylvania andthat’s what gave us as much confidenceas we had was because we knew that therewas paper thereback it up unfortunately that is all thetime that we have and Chris thank you somuch for being here tonight for what isa critical time to be exchanging suchimportant information and ideas thankyou to our online audience if youenjoyed this program please remember tofill out a quick two-minute survey usingthe QR code on the screen so we cancontinue bringing relevant and inspiringcontent to 97 92yfinally as mentioned earlier tonight’sevent was a Prelude to the upcomingAspen cyber Summit on November 16 2022.uh also hosted in person at the 92ndStreet y New York and available onlineto live stream we’ll put on up on thescreen a link to register and a specialpromo code it was an honor to be part ofthe program with the 92nd streetwideAspen digital thank you so much Chrisit’s great to talk to you always andespecially on this topic good nighteveryonethank you

The threats posed by misinformation and disinformation loom large ahead of the 2022 midterm elections.

In addition to worries about foreign information influence operations, we face a growing threat from domestic-born campaigns. What are the most significant risks facing the upcoming elections and what can we do to counter them and protect democratic processes?

At this event, Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency founding director and Aspen Digital’s Senior Newmark Fellow in Cybersecurity Policy, Chris Krebs, and award-winning technology journalist and bestselling author, Cecilia Kang, shared an in-depth, timely discussion on the battle for the truth in our elections.

Krebs, who was fired via tweet by former President Donald Trump for upholding the validity of the 2020 election, provided his insights and expertise with Kang, who co-authored the bestseller, An Ugly Truth: Inside Facebook’s Battle for Domination.